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Pete,

Is it normal for someone who is doing 2 or 3 x 20 intervals to see their average power for the intervals decline week to week? Just wondering.

I definately believe this to be true for the MABRA over 30 crowd. But youngster's looking to race above and beyond MABRA need to build a base from hell and worry about performances later. I don't believe you'll find any pro's that didn't live on the bike their first 2-4 years of riding.

Regarding the fat/weight loss with the 2x20s; From doing these day in and day out and any education you might have on it, what energy system(s) are you using mostly? In other words, what type of foods are you burning doing threshold or sub-threshold intervals? How are you fueling yourself and maintaining or losing weight?

Thanks+

I agree with Pete.
But since im racing 160-180km events endurance is also an important factor. what they do here is incorporate blocks into endurance rides. 3 hours on the bike with a 20min FTP at 92% every hour. i will start that 8 weeks from my first A race.

do yourselves a favor and get pete to coach you.

I would say that would NOT be normal but of course much more information is needed to see why the athlete's power is going down and not up!

Additional comments:

Terry: Just because pros "lived on their bike" doesn't mean it was the best way to train.

Rob: threshold work is burning glycogen mostly - carbs! If you need to loose weight that is an entirely different discussion.

Nick: Yep, exactly the type of training other pros I know use - doing the interval work but inside of longer sessions. Keep up the great work! And thanks for the coaching plug...

this may true for an area that is TT and Crit heavy. ...


Logical vs. Sytematic

I hope all you guys keep riding 20+ hours a week doing LSD Crap which eventually leads to burnout! The only thing that 5 hour rides do is train your ass how to handle 5+ hours in the saddle and train your body to burn fat as fuel. I'll stick to a simple 10 hour week of hard intervals and the weekend 3 hour group rides!
Peace

Cool, continue to tolerate Lactic Acid. I'll clear it out with my "Long 'Steady' Rides" and slow process that will lead to perpetual progress not temporary results.

you think long rides burn you out wait until you try the PC pain plan...on paper it all adds up nice for the go getter but you have to be one hard man to actually do the work PC asks.
it works for him because 1- hes got psycho focus 2- his position is super good so he goes fast to begin with 3- his diet and body fat are dialed to a tee.. those last two play a HUGE part in his results.
this 2x20 thing? i dunno to each his own i guess.
you can do long intervals on long rides. its not such a shock to the system and you can go just as hard. plus there's trees and birds and wind and stuff.

hey guys - I want to add a point of clarification here - there is a distinct difference between what I do in training and how I prescribe workouts for my athletes. Not all my athletes need or want to do intervals 4 or 5 days per week and getting the balance between "training" and fun group rides is exactly what a good coach can offer, as well as a plan to put it all together for the season.

Having said that 2x20:00 threshold work is a staple of many many athletes these days, pros in included.

if you dont make sacrifices you wont gain anything...diet, training, recovery.
long intervals on long rides trains elements that most US racers wont need, the longest race in Mabra is 72 miles which is like 3 hours...


I started with Coach Roger a few years back and followed a very Cannell like plan. I had been off the bike for months and immediately started up with LT intervals and skipped the long slow distance. I was able to quickly get enough endurance to handle 3+ hour rides but most importantly I excelled at the MABRA races which was my goal. Additionally, this style of 'base' training gives me more time for the rest of my life, since I have to work to support my racing.

I agree w/Steve 100%, there is a substantial advantage in lactate reduction through aerobic efficiency rather than lactate management via LT/interval work - I've prescribed to both schools w/LSD work providing the most sustained gains; and LT/interval work progress petering out after 6-10 weeks....

Va Cyclist: Right on! I found there is two ways to train
1. training simulates racing
2. training stimulates racing

sadly, most go with option 1.

do what you want, ignore modern science.
just look at coggans table of physiological adaptations...
why train what you dont race?

If one aspires to race CAT4/5 events, limited to 60 minutes or so then LT/intensity training seems to be the most efficient method - I think most everyone would agree. Although I can't imagine any CAT1/2 racers have achieved there level solely through LT/interval training -to imply long-steady-distance training in not necessary for long term success seems irrational...

Look at the results from ToW.
Frick isnt a big base guy either.
Also:
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/toolbox/sweetspot1.jpg

the key to avoiding burnout is to do long slow rides on the indoor trainer or out in the freezing cold!

Without getting into a nasty argument, I find the below completely baseless and I can cite MANY successful p/1/2 guys who base their training on intensity. In fact, you may find more than not. But you know what, the neat thing about racing is there are many paths to fitness, no one best way for everyone. Enjoy those long, slow, cold rides ;)

If one aspires to race CAT4/5 events, limited to 60 minutes or so then LT/intensity training seems to be the most efficient method - I think most everyone would agree. Although I can't imagine any CAT1/2 racers have achieved there level solely through LT/interval training -to imply long-steady-distance training in not necessary for long term success seems irrational...

no arguments here, just my 2 cents!
. 'LSD' Increasing the number of these capillary pathways paves the way for lactic acid to be shuttled out from one muscle to another where lactic acid can be converted into lactose, which is a usable sugar. This training stimulus, therefore improves performance.

In contrast, under the “logical” approach the cyclist trains harder and harder only to deplete his muscles of the stored glycogen and increase muscle trauma in the process. Under heavy exertion these small capillaries become broken or damaged and cause leaks in the entrance and exit pathways at the muscle site. This type of exercise activity creates a stress response in the cyclist. Although the body is good at replenishing lost nutrients and repairing micro-trauma, it is doing just that between workouts. So when would the body get a chance to adapt and improve? The answer is---it doesn’t. During recovery the cyclist repairs and restores but does not change or otherwise adapt.

With the systematic approach, the athlete first optimizes aerobic adaptation. Through lower intensity rides at longer durations the body responds by improving the cardiovascular system’s ability to transport free fatty acids, oxygen and glycogen. At the same time it becomes more efficient at removing waste products like lactic acid through the increased network of blood vessels (capillaries) at the muscle site. With the removal of lactic acid the body can more quickly convert lactic acid into lactose, which is a usable sugar for energy production. The muscle fibers adapts as well with aerobic training by increasing the storage capacity of glucose; known as mitrochondria proliferation. Mitrochondria are warehouses of glucose found in every muscle cell. The more often the muscle is exercised the greater the accumulation of mitochondria as an adaptation to the exercise. This increased storage promotes energy availability immediately to the muscle during high intensity efforts.

After achieving a sound aerobic base, the systematic approach next addresses sport specific tasks.

Pete C. really knows his stuff (and is technically qualified) much more than I, so no argument there. My comments are only based on my experiences. So maybe there are lots of Pro riders that just do interval work - they sure as heck don't make that known publicly. I would think that if it only took 10hr weeks of LT/intensity training we would have a much larger Pro peloton...I think this horse is dead...

horse is dead.

If you have not read Malcom Gladwell's new book "Outliers" do so immediately. One of the most interesting points made in that book is that people that are really good at something (hockey, gymnastics, violin, piano, lawyering, computer programming, anything) have done it for 10,000 hours.

So if you want are young and want to be a professional cyclist, you had better 1) live somewhere warm 2) have a support system that enables you to 3) ride your bike, ALOT!

Many amateur racers are late twenties or masters age and are not going to the olympics or getting picked up by a pro team. For those racers (such as myself) the 10,000 hour rule does not come into play.

I do not need to go for 5hour rides day after day, I am not trying to become the best, I am trying to become the best I can be with the limited time, crappy weather, etc. that is my reality.

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